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你现在的位置:首页>>群组>>天堂电影小组>>关于Bergman品质的争论

关于Bergman品质的争论

加入收藏 已经被15位会员收藏

2007-8-23 14:15:01

Bergman死后关于其江湖地位引发了一场大争论。现在大概争得差不多了,转几篇重要的文章看看热闹吧。

先是JONATHAN ROSENBAUM挑起事端。。。

 

Scenes From an Overrated Career

By JONATHAN ROSENBAUM

Published: August 4, 2007

Chicago

John Hendrix

THE first Ingmar Bergman movie I ever saw was “The Magician,” at the Fifth Avenue Cinema in the spring of 1960, when I was 17. The only way I could watch the film this week after the Swedish director’s death was on a remaindered DVD I bought in Paris. Like many of his films, “The Magician” hasn’t been widely available here for ages.

Nearly all the obituaries I’ve read take for granted Mr. Bergman’s stature as one of the uncontestable major figures in cinema — for his serious themes (the loss of religious faith and the waning of relationships), for his expert direction of actors (many of whom, like Max von Sydow and Liv Ullmann, he introduced and made famous) and for the hard severity of his images. If you Google “Ingmar Bergman” and “great,” you get almost six million hits.

Sometimes, though, the best indication of an artist’s continuing vitality is simply what of his work remains visible and is still talked about. The hard fact is, Mr. Bergman isn’t being taught in film courses or debated by film buffs with the same intensity as Alfred Hitchcock, Orson Welles and Jean-Luc Godard. His works are seen less often in retrospectives and on DVD than those of Carl Dreyer and Robert Bresson — two master filmmakers widely scorned as boring and pretentious during Mr. Bergman’s heyday.

What Mr. Bergman had that those two masters lacked was the power to entertain — which often meant a reluctance to challenge conventional film-going habits, as Dreyer did when constructing his peculiar form of movie space and Bresson did when constructing his peculiar form of movie acting.

The same qualities that made Mr. Bergman’s films go down more easily than theirs — his fluid storytelling and deftness in handling actresses, comparable to the skills of a Hollywood professional like George Cukor — also make them feel less important today, because they have fewer secrets to impart. What we see is what we get, and what we hear, however well written or dramatic, are things we’re likely to have heard elsewhere.

So where did the outsized reputation of Mr. Bergman come from? At least part of his initial appeal in the ’50s seems tied to the sexiness of his actresses and the more relaxed attitudes about nudity in Sweden; discovering the handsome look of a Bergman film also clearly meant encountering the beauty of Maj-Britt Nilsson and Harriet Andersson. And for younger cinephiles like myself, watching Mr. Bergman’s films at the same time I was first encountering directors like Mr. Godard and Alain Resnais, it was tempting to regard him as a kindred spirit, the vanguard of a Swedish New Wave.

It was a seductive error, but an error nevertheless. The stylistic departures I saw in Mr. Bergman’s ’50s and ’60s features — the silent-movie pastiche in “Sawdust and Tinsel,” the punitive use of magic against a doctor-villain in “The Magician,” the aggressive avant-garde prologue of “Persona” — were actually more functions of his skill and experience as a theater director than a desire or capacity to change the language of cinema in order to say something new. If the French New Wave addressed a new contemporary world, Mr. Bergman’s talent was mainly devoted to preserving and perpetuating an old one.

Curiously, theater is what claimed most of Mr. Bergman’s genius, but cinema is what claimed most of his reputation. He was drawn again and again to the 19th-century theater of Chekhov, Strindberg and Ibsen — these were his real roots — and based on the testimony of friends who saw some of his stage productions when they traveled to Brooklyn, there’s good reason to believe a comprehensive account of his prodigious theater work, his métier, is long overdue.

We remember the late Michelangelo Antonioni for his mysteriously vacant pockets of time, Andrei Tarkovsky for his elaborately choreographed long takes and Orson Welles for his canted angles and staccato editing. And we remember all three for their deep, multifaceted investments in the modern world — the same world Mr. Bergman seemed perpetually in retreat from.

 

Mr. Bergman simply used film (and later, video) to translate shadow-plays staged in his mind — relatively private psychodramas about his own relationships with his cast members, and metaphysical speculations that at best condensed the thoughts of a few philosophers rather than expanded them. Riddled with wounds inflicted by Mr. Bergman’s strict Lutheran upbringing and diverse spiritual doubts, these films are at times too self-absorbed to say much about the larger world, limiting the relevance that his champions often claim for them.

Above all, his movies aren’t so much filmic expressions as expressions on film. One of the most striking aspects of the use of digital video in “Saraband,” his last feature, is his seeming contempt for the medium apart from its usefulness as a simple recording device.

Yet what Mr. Bergman was interested in recording was pretty much the same tormented and tortured neurotic resentments, the same spite and even the same cruelty that can be traced back to his work of a half-century ago. Like John Ford, one of Mr. Bergman’s favorite directors — whose taste for silhouettes moving across horizons he shared — he would endlessly reshuffle his reliable troupe of players, his favorite sores and obsessions, like shards of glass in a kaleidoscope.

It’s strange to realize that his bitter and pinched emotions, once they were combined with excellent cinematography and superb acting, could become chic — and revered as emblems of higher purposes in cinema. But these emotions remain ugly ones, no matter how stylishly they might be served up.

Even stranger to me was the way he always resonated with New York audiences. The antiseptic, upscale look of Mr. Bergman’s interiors and his mainly blond, blue-eyed cast members became a brand to be adopted and emulated. (His artfully presented traumas became so respectable they could help to sell espresso in the lobby of the Fifth Avenue Cinema.) Mr. Bergman, famously, not only helped fuel the art-house aspirations of Woody Allen but Mr. Allen’s class aspirations as well — the dual yearnings ultimately becoming so intertwined that they seemed identical.

Despite all the compulsive superlatives offered up this week, Mr. Bergman’s star has faded, maybe because we’ve all grown up a little, as filmgoers and as socially aware adults. It doesn’t diminish his masterful use of extended close-ups or his distinctively theatrical, seemingly homemade cinema to suggest that movies can offer something more complex and challenging. And while Mr. Bergman’s films may have lost much of their pertinence, they will always remain landmarks in the history of taste.

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24 Lies A Second
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楼主

管理员给此话题奖励了 3 分!
2007-8-23 14:17:32
Robert Ebert出来捍卫Bergman

Ingmar Bergman directing "Saraband."

Defending Ingmar Bergman

/ / / August 7, 2007

 

by Roger Ebert

I have long known and admired the Chicago Reader’s film critic, Jonathan Rosenbaum, but his New York Times op-ed attack on Ingmar Bergman (“Scenes from an Overrated Career,” 8/4/07) is a bizarre departure from his usual sanity. It says more about Rosenbaum’s love of stylistic extremes than it does about Bergman and audiences. Who else but Rosenbaum could actually base an attack on the complaint that Bergman had what his favorites Carl Theodor Dreyer and Robert Bresson lacked, “the power to entertain — which often meant a reluctance to challenge conventional film-going habits?" In what parallel universe is the power to entertain defined in that way?

I love Bresson and respect Dreyer but what does Rosenbaum mean by their challenges to conventional film-going? He continues: “…as Dreyer did when constructing his peculiar form of movie space and Bresson did when constructing his peculiar form of movie acting.” And what were those peculiar forms? Dreyer built an elaborate set for “The Passion of Joan of Arc” and never revealed it, using closeups of faces with expressionistic angles and shadows. Bresson would shoot the same take over and over, as many as 50 times, to drain his actors of all emotion; he referred to them, indeed, as “models.” I am impressed by the idea and conception of these peculiar forms, but I doubt if they are more or less “entertaining” than Bergman’s also stylized but less constricted use of sets and actors.


Jonathan Rosenbaum

Rosenbaum writes, “Riddled with wounds inflicted by Mr. Bergman’s strict Lutheran upbringing and diverse spiritual doubts, these films are at times too self-absorbed to say much about the larger world, limiting the relevance that his champions often claim for them.” This statement is perfectly accurate about Dreyer if you substitute his name for Bergman’s, and perfectly accurate about Bresson, if you substitute the names and change “Lutheran” to “Catholic.” Indeed, Bresson has been called the most Catholic of filmmakers.

Rosenbaum says Bergman is less taught in schools today than Godard and Hitchcock. He carefully avoids saying Bergman is less taught than Dreyer or Bresson. I grant him Hitchcock. He uses Google counts in his argument, so out of curiosity I googled “film class on Ingmar Bergman” (1,400,000) and “film class on Jean-Luc Godard (310,000). He says Bergman is “less discussed,” so I googled web discussion groups and found that Bergman scored 59,000 and Godard 14,400. Of course these entries cover a multitude of kinds of content, but there you have them.

Curiously, Rosenbaum thinks it is a sign of Bergman’s decline that he is hard to find on DVD these days, because he had to purchase his copy of “The Magician” in Paris (“Like many of his films, 'The Magician' hasn’t been widely available here for ages.”). Not true. I had to order Welles’ “Chimes at Midnight” from Brazil, and his “Magnificent Ambersons” is unavailable in this country, but I find 66 DVDs of Bergman’s 50-some titles, including "The Magician," for sale on Amazon, although some of them are for zones other than ours (an all-zone DVD player now costs less than $70, something I learned from Rosenbaum before ordering mine). You can find DVDs of all Dreyer’s films from “Joan” onward (five), and 10 of the 13 Bressons.


Writer-director Paul Schrader's appreciation made the front page of the British newspaper "The Independent."

The most recent of the four Bergmans that Rosenbaum even mentions is “Persona” (1966), except for “Saraband” (2005), his final film. The sin of that film was “his seeming contempt for the medium [digital video] apart from its usefulness as a simple recording device.” In other words, at 86, Bergman did not choose to experiment with digital but simply used it. Surely it is also of interest that the film reunited the same two actors, Liv Ullmann and Erland Josephson, who had already played a divorced couple in “Scenes from a Marriage” (1973), and now meet again many years later. As for Bergman’s openness to a newer medium, what about his embrace of the lower costs and greater flexibility of Super 16 more than 35 years ago? What about him proving with Sven Nykvist in “The Passion of Anna” that a conversation could be shot on 16mm by the light of a single candle?

I think Rosenbaum gives away the game when he says, Bergman’s “movies aren’t so much filmic expressions as expressions on film.” He means form itself is more important (and entertaining, I guess) than narrative, emotional content and performance. Not everyone would agree.

Rosenbaum complains of “the antiseptic, upscale look of Mr. Bergman’s interiors.” Would that include the interiors in “The Virgin Spring,” “The Seventh Seal,” “The Passion of Anna,” “The Silence,” “Wild Strawberries,” “Hour of the Wolf,” “Scenes from a Marriage” and indeed “The Magician” and “Persona?” (I would mention “Fanny and Alexander” and its horror-house Lutheran parsonage but Rosenbaum says he hasn’t seen the film voted #3 in the Sight & Sound poll of world directors and critics to determine the best films from 1975-2000.)

Finally, Rosenbaum laments how Bergman’s “mainly blond, blue-eyed cast members became a brand to be adopted and emulated.” Hello? Bergman worked in Sweden! Does he forgive Ousmane Sembene’s African exteriors and mainly black-haired, brown-eyed cast members? Or the way Ozu used all those Japanese?

Dreyer’s “The Passion of Joan of Arc” and Bresson’s “Pickpocket” and “Au Hasard Balthazar” are reviewed in the Great Movies section, along with Bergman’s “The Seventh Seal,” “Persona,” “Cries and Whispers” and “Fanny and Alexander.”

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24 Lies A Second
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1 楼

2007-8-23 14:20:15

David Bordwell老师也不甘寂寞,写了长文一篇

 

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DB here:
Jonathan Rosenbaum has created quite a stir. His New York Times Op-Ed piece, “Scenes from an Overrated Career,” offers a fairly harsh judgment on the films of Ingmar Bergman. In one sense the timing was awkward; the poor man had just died. But the article wouldn’t have attracted much attention if Rosenbaum had waited a few months, so if creating a cause célébre was his goal, he chose the right moment.
Timing aside, there wasn’t much in the piece that hasn’t been said by certain cadres of cinephiles for decades. Back in the 1960s, people called Bergman “theatrical,” “uncinematic,” pretentious, and intellectually shallow. He was even accused of hypocrisy. His spiritual, philosophical films always seemed to depend on a surprising number of couplings, killings, rapes, and gorgeous ladies, often naked. Rosenbaum contrasts Bergman with Bresson and Dreyer, more austere religious filmmakers as well as great formal innovators, and this gambit too is familiar from late-night film-society disputes. Jonathan’s case is news in the good, grey Times, but it’s an old story among his (my) generation.
I think that this generational antipathy has many sources. While Bergman had considerable academic cachet, this may have hurt him with smart-alecks like us. Cinephile priests and professors told us that Bergman was a great mind, but we suspected them of snobbery, for they often disdained even foreign filmmakers who dabbled in popular genres. Kurosawa was admired for Rashomon and I Live in Fear rather than for Seven Samurai and Yojimbo. And many of Bergman’s intellectual fans despised the classic tradition of American studio film. Hitchcock had not yet convinced literature profs of his excellence, and Ford was a gnarled geezer who made Westerns. Bergman and his acolytes seemed just too square. Our money was on Godard, especially after Susan Sontag’s magisterial essay on him.
Furthermore, some critics were on our side. Pauline Kael, with her nose for elitism, mocked ambitious European experiments like Marienbad. Andrew Sarris, who had a huge influence on our generation, initially registered respect for the arthouse kings. They proved that an artist could put a personal vision on film, thus buttressing the auteur approach to criticism. But Sarris retreated fairly fast. He was more unflaggingly enthusiastic about American popular cinema, and by contrast he often characterized the new Europeans as gloomy, middlebrow, and narcissistic. (He did, after all, coin the phrase “Antonionennui.”) Sarris made it possible for us to argue that, say, Meet Me in St. Louis was a better film than L’Eclisse or Winter Light. (1)
Of course I’m generalizing; no Boomer’s experience was identical with any other’s. Speaking just for myself, I didn’t have a deep love for Bergman, and I still don’t. I was drawn to his early idylls (Monika, Summer Interlude) and impressed but chilled by the official classics (Smiles of a Summer Night, The Seventh Seal, The Virgin Spring). Persona, I admit, was a punch in the face. Seeing it in its New York opening, I felt that all of modern cinema was condensed into a mere eighty minutes. But no Bergman film afterward measured up to that for me, and after The Serpent’s Egg I just lost interest, catching up with Cries and Whispers, Scenes from a Marriage, Fanny and Alexander, and a very few others over the later decades.
We can talk tastes forever. Maybe you think Bergman is great, or the greatest, or obscenely overrated. I think that there’s something more general and intriguing going on beyond our tastes. What makes this hard to see is that the venues of popular journalism don’t allow us to explore some of the ideas and questions raised by our value judgments.

Critical semaphore
Take some of Rosenbaum’s criticisms, which Roger Ebert has persuasively answered. I’d add that Jonathan is sometimes applying criteria to Begman that he wouldn’t apply to directors he admires. Bergman isn’t taught frequently in film courses? So what? Neither is Straub/Huillet or Rivette or Bela Tarr. Bergman is theatrical? So too are Rivette and Dreyer, both of whom Rosenbaum has written about sympathetically.
More importantly, Jonathan’s critique is so glancing and elliptical that we can scarcely judge it as right or wrong. A few instances:
*Bergman’s movies aren’t “filmic expressions.” There’s no opportunity in an Op-Ed piece for Jonathan to explain what his conception of filmic expression is. Is he reviving the old idea of cinematic specificity—a kind of essence of cinema that good movies manifest? As opposed to theatrical cinema? I’ve argued elsewhere on this site that we should probably be pluralistic about all the possibilities of the medium.
*Bergman was reluctant to challenge “conventional film-going habits.” Why is that bad? Why is challenging them good? No time to explain, must move on….
*Bergman didn’t follow Dreyer in experimenting with space, or Bresson in experimenting with performance. Not more than .0001 % of Times readers have the faintest idea what Jonathan is talking about here. He would need to explain what he takes to be Dreyer’s experiments with space and Bresson’s experiments with performance.
In his reply to Roger Ebert, Jonathan has kindly referenced a book of mine, where I make the case that Dreyer experimented with cinematic space (and time). Right: I wrote a book. It takes a book to make such a case. It would take a book to explain and back up in an intellectually satisfying way the charges that Jonathan makes.
Popular journalism doesn’t allow you to cite sources, summarize arguments, develop subtle cases. No time! No space! No room for specialized explanations that might mystify ordinary readers! So when the critic proposes a controversial idea, he has to be brief, blunt, and absolute. If pressed, and still under the pressure of time and column inches, he will wave us toward other writers, appeal to intuition and authority, say that a broadside is really just aimed to get us thinking and talking. But what have we gained by sprays of soundbites? Provocations are always welcome, but if they really aim to change our thinking, somebody has to work them through.
I’ve suggested elsewhere that too much film writing, on paper and on the Net, favors opinion over information and ideas. Opinions, which can be stated in a clever turn of phrase, suit the constraints of publication. Amassing facts and exploring ideas in a responsible way—making distinctions, checking counterexamples, anticipating objections, nuancing broad statements—takes more time. Academics are sometimes mocked for their show-all-your-work tendencies, and I grant that this can be tedious. But we’re just trying to get it right, and that can’t be done quickly.
Now you know why our blog entries are so damn long.
This one is no exception.
Too often film talk slides from being film comment to film chat to film chatter. Even our best critics, among whom Rosenbaum must be counted, make use of a kind of rapid semaphore, signaling to the already converted. Evidently his ideal reader agrees that good cinema is challenging and experimental, directing actresses is a minor talent, and being admired by upscale Manhattanites is a sign of a sellout. Readers will self-select; those who have congruent tastes will pick up the signals. But these beliefs aren’t really knowledge. They’re just, when you get right down to it, attitudes.
I’ll try to explore just one of the issues Jonathan raises but can’t pursue: the question of how stylistically innovative Bergman was. Of course, I can’t write a book here either. I offer what follows as simply the start of what could be an interesting research project.
One stylistic arc
The rise of European arthouse auteurs in film culture of the 1950s and 1960s put the question of personal style on the agenda, but back then we didn’t have many tools for analyzing stylistic differences among directors. We didn’t know much about the local histories of those imported films; as Sarris recently pointed out, L’Avventura was Antonioni’s sixth feature but was his first film released in the US. Moreover, we didn’t know much about the norms of ordinary commercial filmmaking, in the US or elsewhere. (2) Today we’re in a better position to characterize what went on. (3)
In most countries, quality cinema of the late 1940s relied on variations of the Hollywood approach to staging, shooting, and cutting that had emerged in the silent era. Directors moved their performers around the set fairly fluidly and used editing to enlarge and stress aspects of the action. You can see a straightforward example of this approach on an earlier entry on this blogsite.
Many directors of the period built upon this default by creating deep space in staging and framing. Using wide-angle lenses, directors could allow actors to come quite close to the camera, sometimes with their heads looming in the foreground, while other figures could be placed far in the distance. Several planes of action could be more or less in focus. Here’s a straightforward example from William Wyler’s The Little Foxes.
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We find directors exploiting this approach not only in the United States but in Eastern and Western Europe, Scandinavia, the Soviet Union, Japan, Mexico, and South America. Here’s an instance from the French film Justice est faite (1950).
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Why did this approach emerge in so many countries at the same time? We don’t really know. It wasn’t simply the influence of Citizen Kane, as we might think. The Stalinist cinema had developed deep-space shooting in the 1930s, and we can find it elsewhere. Probably Hollywood’s 1940s films helped spread the style, but there are likely to be local causes in various countries too.
In any event, during the 1950s two technological changes posed problems for this style. One was the greater use of color filming, which renders depth of field much more difficult. The other innovation was anamorphic widescreen, a technology seen in CinemaScope and Panavision. These systems also had trouble maintaining focus in many planes when the foreground was close to the camera. The flagrant depth compositions we find in black-and-white ‘flat’ films were quite difficult to replicate in color and anamorphic widescreen.
Through the 1960s, the deep-focus style became a minor option and directors found other alternatives to presenting character interactions. The most basic one was simply to station the camera at a middle distance and create a more porous and open staging, with fewer planes of action and simple panning movements to follow characters.
One new approach relied not on wide-angle lenses but on lenses of long focal length. Instead of staging scenes in depth, putting the camera close to a foreground figure, filmmakers began keeping the camera back a fair distance and using long lenses to enlarge the action. This accompanied a trend toward greater location shooting; it’s easier to follow actors on a street or highway if the camera shoots with a telephoto lens. The long lens also reduces the volumes of each plane, so that figures tend to look like cutouts (4). This lens facilitated the development of those perpendicular images I’ve called, in some writing and on this blog, planimetric shots.

What fascinates me about this general pattern of stylistic change in the US and America is how many of the Euro auteurs go along with it. Take Fellini, who shifts from the bold depth compositions of I Vitelloni to the fresco-like flatness of Satyricon.
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Likewise, Luchino Visconti’s early black-and-white work affords textbook examples of deep-focus cinematography, but in the 1960s he embraced the telephoto look, heightened by what we can call the pan-and-zoom tactic. In Death in Venice, the camera often scans a scene, searching out one player to follow then zooming back to reframe the figure in relation to others. One shot starts with the boy Tadzio, pans right across the hotel salon, to end on von Aschenbach, staring at the boy, and then zooming back to take in the larger scene.
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Probably Rossellini’s 1960s films, such as Viva l’Italia! and Rise to Power of Louis XIV, were key influences on this look.

Leaving Europe, there’s Kurosawa, who was the first major director I know of to build zoom and telephoto lenses into his style. Satayajit Ray followed much the same trajectory from the Apu trilogy’s flamboyant depth to the pan-and-zoom close-ups of The Home and the World. Not every filmmaker took the long-lens option, but as it became commonplace in the 1960s, many major directors tried it.
What about Bergman? It seems that in most respects he went along with the general trends. We find deeply piled-up bodies early in his career (e.g., Port of Call, below) and through the 1950s and early 1960s (The Face, below).
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Like his peers, with color and widescreen he shifted toward more open staging, long lenses, and zooms. For example, one telephoto shot of Cries and Whispers zooms back as the little girl emerges, zig-zagging, from behind the lace curtain.
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We might conclude that Bergman mostly worked with the received forms of his day. At the level of shot design, The Face might have been shot by the Sidney Lumet of Fail-Safe. But Bergman did innovate somewhat, I think. Most obviously, he sometimes had recourse to the suffocating frontal close-up, as in a childbirth scene from Brink of Life.
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He develops this visual idea by creating heads floating unanchored in both foreground and background. Here’s a famous image from Persona.
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Pace Rosenbaum, I’d say that this sequence, with Elisabeth Vogler apparently quite oblivious to her husband’s mating with Alma, definitely “challenges conventional film-going habits”—or at least conventional ways we read a scene. It seems to combine the deep-space, big-foreground scheme of the 1940s with the tight close-ups of his early work, and instead of specifying space it undermines it. We have to ask if what happens in the background is Elisabeth’s hallucination.

My case is very schematic, and we would need to study Bergman film by film and scene by scene to confirm that he stuck to the broad norms of his time. The norms themselves also deserve deeper probing than I’ve given them. (5)

But let’s push a bit further and examine Antonioni, that perpetual foil to Bergman. Broadly speaking, he passed through the same arc, from deep-focus compositions in the 1950s and early 1960s to telephoto flatness in his color work. Yet there are some important differences.
In the 1950s, unlike Bergman, Antonioni employed quite intricate staging, sustained by long takes. He usually didn’t opt for big foregrounds, favoring more distant framings and sidelong camera movements. The most famous instance is the startling 360-degree long take on the bridge in his first feature, Story of a Love Affair, but Le Amiche is also full of intricate staging in mid-ground depth. One scene shows fashion models bustling around after a successful show, congratulating the shop’s owner Clelia. She opens a card from her lover, is distracted by the arrival of her friends coming to congratulate her, and goes off with them. One model darts diagonally forward to investigate the message. All of this is handled in a single graceful take.
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Antonioni relies on the fluid staging techniques developed in the early sound era and taken in diverse directions by Renoir, Ophuls, Preminger, Mizoguchi, and other directors of the 1930s and 1940s. Often, however, Antonioni’s characters move rather slowly and hold themselves in place, and as a result the overall spatial dynamic unfolds in marked phases. (6)

In the trilogy starting with L’Avventura, Antonioni relies on shorter takes and less florid camera movement. Now he emphasizes landscape and architecture so as to diminish the characters. If the expressionist side of Bergman plays up the psychological implications of the drama, the more austere Antonioni plays things down, “dedramatizing” his scenes by keeping the camera back, turning the figures away from us, and reminding us of the milieu. (You see the Antonioni influence on similar strategies in the work of Edward Yang, as I discussed recently on this blog.)
Once color came along, Antonioni changed his style, moving toward less dense staging and at times almost casual framing (as in The Passenger). He also had recourse to the telephoto technique, but I’d argue he brought something new to it. With Red Desert he accepted the abstraction inherent in the long lens and combined that with color design to create a pure pictorialism.
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Ironically, RedDesert may have made Antonioni another sort of ‘expressionist’ than Bergman. The stylized palette of the film encourages us to ask if the industrial landscape is really so smeared and bleached out, or if we’re seeing it as Giuliana does. The same sort of painterly abstraction can be found in Zabriskie Point. In one scene, a pan over the travel decals on a family’s car window treats the boy inside as no more than another thin slice of space. Other scenes turn campus policemen into figures in grids.
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You might even argue that the pan-and-zoom style gets a kind of meta-treatment in the climactic shot of The Passenger. There in a grandiose technical gesture Antonioni’s concern for architecture, his refusal to underscore a melodramatic plot twist, and his love of camera movement blend with the technology of the zoom. At the time, several of us (maybe Jonathan too) saw this shot as a response to Michael Snow’s Wavelength, relayed through the sensibility of Passenger screenwriter and avant-garde filmmaker Peter Wollen. Now it looks to me like a natural response of a very self-conscious artist to a stylistic trend of the moment.

A bestiary of stylists
To get crude and peremptory: Let’s say that once a director has reached maturity and become a confident artisan, several choices offer themselves. The filmmaker can be a flexible stylist, a stubborn stylist, or a polystylist (sorry for the awkward term).
A flexible stylist adapts to reigning norms. Bergman could be an aggressive-deep-focus director, then a pan-and-zoom director. Both approaches to staging and shooting preserved the expressive dimensions that mattered most to him: performance (chiefly face and voice), Ibsenesque bourgeois tragedy, Strindbergian play with dream and dissolution of the ego, and other elements.
Most of the major 1960s arthouse directors, from Truffaut and Wajda to Pasolini and Demy, were flexible stylists in this sense. So were a great many Hollywood and Japanese directors, such as Lubitsch and Kinoshita. Perhaps Ousmane Sembene, who also died recently, would be another instance. Buñuel becomes a fascinating case: He adopts the blandest, calmest version of each trend, creating a neutral technique, the better to shock us with what he shows.
A stubborn stylist pursues a signature style across the vagaries of fashion and technology. Dreyer from Vampyr onward does this; I argue in the book Jonathan cites that he seeks to “theatricalize” cinema in a way that goes beyond the norms of his moment. Perhaps Hitchcock and von Sternberg (at least in the 1920s and 1930s) fit in here as well. Bresson, Tati, and supremely Ozu were stubborn stylists. Give them a western or a porno to shoot, and they’d handle each the same way. (7)
This isn’t to argue that stubborn stylists never change or always do the same thing. Mizoguchi has a signature style and yet remains fairly pluralistic, at least at a scene-by-scene level. I think that the test comes in seeing how stubborn stylists persistently explore the constrained conditions they’ve set for themselves.
Signature styles help a filmmaker in the festival market, so we don’t lack for current examples of stubborn creators: Godard, Theo Angelopoulos, Hou Hsiao-hsien, Kitano Takeshi, Tsai Ming-liang, and Jia Zhang-ke. Granted, some of these may be rethinking their commitment to their stylistic premises.
A polystylist tries out different styles without much concern for what the reigning norms demand. Polystylistics holds a high place in modernist aesthetics. After the great triumvirate of Picasso, Joyce, and Stravinsky, with their bewildering arrays of periods and pastiches, the idea of the modernist as a virtuoso steeped in several styles became a powerful option. What’s been called postmodernism is no less favorable to polystylism; if you mix styles, you’ve presumably mastered them.
In cinema, some polystylists are just eclectic. Steven Soderbergh can give us the portentous pictorialism of The Underneath or Solaris, the grab-and-go look of Traffic, and the trim polish of Ocean’s 11. More deeply, there are directors like R. W. Fassbinder, Raoul Ruiz, and Oshima Nagisa who seem to pursue polystylistics on principle. It’s as if, rejecting the very idea of a signature style, they set themselves fresh, severe conditions for each project.
After The Boss of It All, we may want to count von Trier as a polystylist, not merely a director who changed his style from one phase of his career to another. Perhaps the best current example is Aleksandr Sokurov; who would dare predict what his next film will look like?

This whole entry is pretty sketchy, I grant you. The categories need further refining. I’ve ignored sound, which is very important. I’ve emphasized visual style, and just shooting and staging within that. (Nothing about lighting, cutting, etc.) So this is tentative—notes perhaps for a book-length argument. But I’ve made my point if you see that some ideas and some historical information can put intuitions about originality into a firmer framework.
And I’ve left the value judgments suspended. If you think originality trumps other criteria, then Bergman doesn’t probably come up as strong as Antonioni, let alone Bresson or Ozu or Dreyer. But if you can entertain the possibility that a great filmmaker can accept certain norms of his time, making those serve other channels of expression, then Bergman can’t automatically be faulted. At least thinking about him and his peers in the context of the history of film art gives us some data to ground our arguments. The world is more interesting and unpredictable than our opinions, especially those we formulated forty years ago.

(1) I actually hold this opinion.
(2) I assume that the arthouse auteurs were no less commercial filmmakers than their Hollywood counterparts. They were sustained by national film industries and supported by the international film trade. Eventually many were funded by Hollywood companies.
My friend and colleague Tino Balio is at work on a book tracing the role of overseas imports in the American film market of the 1940s-1960s, and it should be a real eye-opener to those who persist in counterposing art cinema and commercial production.
(3) Some of what follows is discussed in Part Four of Film History: An Introduction.
(4) I talk about both the deep-focus and long-lens tendencies in Chapter 6 of On the History of Film Style and Chapter 5 of Figures Traced in Light.
(5) For a wide-ranging account of art-cinema norms, see András Bálint Kovács’ forthcoming book, Screening Modernism: EuropeanArtCinema, 1950-1980.
(6) I analyze this tendency, using other scenes from Le Amiche, in On the History of Film Style (pp. 235-236) and Figures Traced in Light (pp. 151-152).
(7) Suo Masayuki’s My Brother’s Wife: The Crazy Family is a softcore film made in a pastiche of Ozu’s style.
cronaca-2-500.jpg
Story of a Love Affair (Cronaca di un amore).
PS, Sunday 12 August: Only a day later, new thoughts about something else I should have said about generational tastes. In the light of the Woody Allen eulogy that appears in the New York Times today, I think there’s more of a sub-generational split than I’d initially suspected. So here’s another gesture toward the sort of history of taste that Jonathan mentions.
Allen is in his seventies, a decade older than Jonathan Rosenbaum and me. He came of age in the affluent decade after the war. Allen saw Bergman films in the mid- to late 1950s, probably against the backdrop of Neorealism, British comedy, and French Cinema of Quality. In that context, Bergman’s movies looked pretty revolutionary.
But Jonathan and I came to maturity, if that’s the right word, in the mid-1960s. When I got to college in 1965, French directors (notably Resnais, Godard, Truffaut) and the Czechs, Hungarians, and others were getting established in US film culture. Bergman, Fellini, and Antonioni were already senior directors and soon they were starting to make what many of us perceived as career mistakes (Juliet of the Spirits, The Passion of Anna, even Blow-Up). Also, of course, concerns about their political alignments came more to the fore as the decade wore on. Many of my friends thought that The Battle of Algiers left all other films in the shade. These factors may have made the Boomers suspicious of “arty” foreign imports, of which Bergman’s work was a central instance. Interestingly, The Dove, a parody of The Seventh Seal and a film-society staple, came out in 1968, when Bergman may have been wearing out his welcome.
[Speaking of parodies, the SCTV skit, “Scenes from an Idiot’s Marriage”, in which Jerry Lewis (Martin Short) suffers the indignities of a cuckolded Bergman hero, is well worth checking out. The SCTV Fellini/ Antonioni parody, “Rome Italian Style,” is also pretty good, especially for its excellently awkward dubbing.]
Interestingly, Scorsese in age falls midway between Allen and us Boomers, and he contributes a Times tribute to Antonioni today. Maybe I have to split the generations even more: Bergman for 1955-1960, Antonioni for 1961-1965, Godard for 1965-1970? (Just kidding.) What strikes me are the differences in the essays. While Allen ranges widely, reports conversations, and praises Bergman in general terms, Scorsese’s piece evokes the texture of L’Avventura, suggesting how disturbing and demanding it was to watch. Maybe he inadvertently backs Jonathan’s claim that Bergman didn’t challenge his audience as much as he might have?
monika.jpgI’m grateful as well to readers responding to my arguments. Michael Kerpan kindly spread the word about my post on imdb and the Criterion Forum. Kent Jones wrote to point out that any argument about Bergman’s influence has to take into account the high regard in which he’s been held in France, among both critics and filmmakers. Kent itemizes not only Godard, Truffaut, and Rivette but Assayas, Téchiné, and Desplechin. It’s a fair point. Antoine de Baecque anchors much of his magisterial history of Cahiers du Cinéma around the mesmerizing power of that busty still of Harriet Anderson, flaunted on a 1958 Cahiers cover and swiped by Antoine in The 400 Blows. In 2003, my old friend Jacques Aumont published a large critical study on Bergman. Cahiers’ next issue will be devoted to the director.
Speaking of French critics and directors, on imdb above Bertrand Tavernier points out that my memory failed. I did see Scenes from a Marriage and Cries and Whispers before The Serpent’s Egg, not after, as my post suggests.
My late Bergman viewing remains gappy. I still haven’t seen the long version of Fanny and Alexander, which everyone assures me is a masterpiece. Last spring, my friend and Bergman scholar Paisley Livingston showed me portions of the TV film The Last Gasp (1995). It’s about Georg af Klercker, the fine Swedish director of the 1910s. It was intriguing, but I was put off by Bergman’s inadequate pastiches of af Klercker’s remarkably poised and complex shots. Now that’s fussy taste, I admit.
11:51 am | Saturday, 11 August, 2007 | Film comments, Film technique |

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24 Lies A Second
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2 楼

2007-8-23 14:50:20
哈哈﹐我之前只曾略讀 brodwell 一文﹐Ebert 真是動火啊﹐與其說 persuasively answered ﹐不如說 forcefully answered......雖然兩者字義相近


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3 楼

2007-8-23 15:22:44

干着急,全英文face

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坚持带三个表,保持先进的性教育
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4 楼

2007-8-23 15:34:24

Re Bergman: Rosenbaum responds to Ebert

 

From: Jonathan Rosenbaum, Chicago, IL

Critic Jonathan Rosenbaum of the Chicago Reader responds to four points in Roger Ebert's article ("Defending Ingmar Bergman"):

1. The best discussion of Dreyer's use of space is to be found in David Bordwell's book on Dreyer, which I highly recommend. David is Roger's favorite academic critic, and understandably so, given the rigor of his visual analysis, so I hope Roger can check out Bordwell's treatment of Dreyer's use of space, which is quite different from what his article suggests it is. To broach this matter much more briefly, I hope I can be forgiven for quoting from another recent post of mine in "a_film_by":

"Syntactically, Dreyer's editing and his way of combining a track in one direction with a pan in another direction are more than just personal inflections, and the same goes for Bresson's use of inexpressiveness in both performances and shots in order to make the juxtapositions between shots and what might be called the involuntary expressiveness of bodies register in a different way from how we've experienced them before. In both cases, I think what's new isn't just a new 'personal' meaning but a new way of producing meaning--and that for me signifies a change in language."

2. I'm afraid Dreyer didn't have a strict Lutheran upbringing--that's been an old wives' tale ever since Maurice Drouzy's Dreyer biography came out. Dreyer hated his adopted parents, but not for any religious reasons. And I don't know anything about Bresson's religious upbringing; if Roger does, he should speak up. (As for Bresson's religious beliefs, a matter of much speculation, that's also been debated at some length in "a film by" over the past few days.)

3. Bergman's "seeming contempt" for digital video "apart from its usefulness as a simple recording device" in "Saraband" isn't a sin in my book but a plus. That's what I argued when I reviewed the film in the Reader -- at least that's what I tried to argue. What I find objectionable at times in "Saraband," as I say in my article, are some of the emotions being recorded and Bergman's lack of interest in critiquing or distancing himself from them in any way.

4. Moreover, I have absolutely nothing against Bergman having used blond and blue-eyed cast members, nearly all of whom are extremely talented as well as Swedish. My objection is only to the way this use and practice became "a brand to be adopted and emulated"-- by Woody Allen, among others.

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5 楼

 
 
2007-8-23 15:38:12
顺便说下,总的来说,我很烦Woody Allen。
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24 Lies A Second
2007-8-23 16:05:32
他说他反对模式化?
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坚持带三个表,保持先进的性教育
 
 
2007-8-23 15:53:37

Mr. Bergman simply used film (and later, video) to translate shadow-plays staged in his mind — relatively private psychodramas about his own relationships with his cast members, and metaphysical speculations that at best condensed the thoughts of a few philosophers rather than expanded them. Riddled with wounds inflicted by Mr. Bergman’s strict Lutheran upbringing and diverse spiritual doubts, these films are at times too self-absorbed to say much about the larger world, limiting the relevance that his champions often claim for them.

 

试着翻译一段:face

 

伯格曼简单的拿电影来搬演在他自己头脑中发生的一些场景和想法——关于它自身的私密戏剧和一些形而上的思考,但是这些思考最多只是提及一些简单的哲学课题而非深入拓展他们。精神上的千疮百孔可能是由伯格曼严苛的路德教成长历程和由此产生的多种怀疑精神所致(意思是说伯格曼对路德教的反叛),这些电影有时候太过于自我而不能准确的表述更丰富的世界,limiting the relevance that his champions often claim for them.最后一句啥意思?mnauce?

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坚持带三个表,保持先进的性教育
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6 楼

 
 
2007-8-23 16:21:55
Bergman先生只是简单地用胶片(以及后期所使用的video)把他头脑中演绎的影戏转换成电影。这些影戏通常是有关他与其演员的那些颇为私人的心理剧(Bergman的演员中不乏他的情人,老婆。Rosenbaum这里似有讽刺之意),再加上些许形而上思辨--充其量只是摘取了一些哲学家的思想而没有任何拓展。 他的这些作品充斥了其本人严苛的路德宗出身教育及其各种精神疑虑的影响,很多时候太过个人化而与那更广阔的世界无涉。因而他那些拥护者对其的溢美之词并不那么靠谱。
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24 Lies A Second
 
 
2007-8-23 19:31:27
 ``谢谢mnauce提供的好资料`  我正遍寻高手翻译中!!!
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不苦活着干什么
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7 楼

2007-8-23 19:43:34

我不过copy+paste一下而已。

可惜的是MS没人来讨论。

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8 楼

 
 
2007-8-23 22:06:26
因为这么长一篇英语的文章,翻译的很困难,翻译出来能了解也比很难。
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不苦活着干什么
2007-8-28 13:31:33
英文烂啊
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人皆寻梦
 
 
2007-8-23 22:24:55
通过mnauce的介绍,我顺藤摸瓜的找到很多影评人的blog,比如波德维尔的,尝试着去看看英文的网站,face
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坚持带三个表,保持先进的性教育
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9 楼

2007-8-24 16:39:48

伯格曼在世界电影大师中,无论他的电影,还是他本人的人生经历,都无疑最具典型的救赎意义(如序言所述,此救赎非单纯结果意义上的救赎)。本书中述及的另外9位大师的救赎母题:囚困、焦虑、疏离、孤独、迷茫、沉沦、罪恶、欲望、残酷,在他的影片中都有不同程度的涵盖。他是大师中的大师。

         
      他为自己的电影总结的主题,是人性,通过人与人的接触凸现出来的一种人性,他为人类的信仰和情感作了全面深入的解剖。崇拜他的维姆·文德斯说:“我们在伯格曼的电影中看见‘我们自己’,但可不是像‘镜子’一般反射自己的影像,不,比那还好一点,我们所看到的是一部关于我们的‘电影’”。他的电影同时也是自己的一个活体捐献,他把自己捐出来,可以同时供几路人——导演、现代艺术家、哲学家、宗教学家和心理学家作解剖的标本,包括那本看得见他灵魂滴血的自传《魔灯》。他电影的意义,很大一部分已经超越了电影。

         
      伯格曼的一生,几乎汇集了人们可能遇到的所有重大危机:家庭、亲情危机——从小得不到爱和温暖,与父母、哥哥、妹妹每一个人之间都存在着巨大的怨恨、隔膜和疏远;爱情、婚姻危机——离婚4次,结婚5次,另外和数位女演员有过情史,连自己的子女都认不全,孩子认为他不是一个父亲,只是一个导演;终极的生存、信仰危机——从小就思考死亡,有过两次自杀的念头,怀疑上帝的存在,直至和上帝一刀两断。除了这三大危机之外,另外还包括健康危机——生下来就不断地被一些莫名其妙的疾病侵扰;法律危机,连带心理危机——曾因逃税风波而被捕,为此还在医院接受心理治疗,3个月后到德国过起了长达6年半的自我放逐式生活,如此等等。他1946年执导的长片处女作,片名就叫《危机》,他的编剧处女作,则叫《狂乱》。

         
      伯格曼和他的电影,既是一座巨大的孤岛,又是一座“巨大的灯塔”(文德斯语)。在他那里,上帝沉默了,爱消失了,他在痛苦和绝望中发出呼号,提出质疑,对所有的人,对上帝,他只有四个字:我—不—相—信。是残酷无情的现实,摧毁了他对世界的信任,而事实上,他是如此地渴望相信。他的不相信,是对于相信的呼唤。他对于不相信表达得越是激烈,越是痛切,越是如此的撕心裂肺,就恰恰说明了,他的内心越是渴望得到关于信任的任何回答与证明。他的一生,都在不信与信之间痛苦徘徊,苦苦寻求着爱与信仰的救赎。

         
      伯格曼善于用非理性的方式,用梦境、幻觉、潜意识、隐喻、象征等手法,展示人物非理性的内心状态,并探索那些高度理性和抽象的重大哲学命题。他的电影,被称为“哲学电影”,而其中很大一部分作品在样式上属于“室内心理剧”,情节、人物简单,注重对白和心理刻画,用他最喜欢的电影大师塔可夫斯基的话说,“当今电影中最受忽略或者表达得最肤浅的便是内心描写”。他的艺术信条是:简单而深入人心。他的电影充满了强烈的个人主观色彩,是一种心灵自传、日记式的自我书写,“作家电影”的倡导者、法国电影新浪潮旗手特吕弗,说伯格曼“已经做了我们做梦都想做的事。他写电影,就如同作家写书。不过他用的不是笔,而是摄影机”。从他的电影中,我们可以清晰地窥见他本人灵魂的每一次抽搐,并且常常有一种窒息,乃至晕厥感,难怪他的影片令他自己都感到压抑。他很少看自己的影片,因为看了之后他的情绪会很激动,会忍不住颤抖和痛哭,感到自己很可怜,所以他一拍电影,就总会规律性地生病。对于他的观众来说,这几乎也成了一种极端的、必然的心理体验:每看他的一部电影,你都会被他强大的“病症”压得喘不过气来,就像自己大病一场。基耶斯洛夫斯基评价伯格曼电影的张力,是你会被他裹挟而去。

         
      伯格曼深刻而敏锐地揭示了现代人的孤独、苦闷、疏离,和莫名的恐惧。他影片中的主人公,往往身处一个历史时代感不明,身处封闭荒芜、与世隔绝、仿佛被甩出地球之外的“抽象时空”,在这样高度虚化的时空之内,人陷入彻底的孤独,他们的气质总是那么忧郁、痛苦而敏感,不论是亲人、恋人,还是爱人,相互之间都无法沟通、交流,或者交流成为一种交战,成为惊心动魄的相互伤害和折磨。伯格曼对生存的意义和死亡的恐惧,对上帝的存在与永恒的沉默,发出了一连串存在主义的诘问,他用活生生的影像,展现了存在主义哲学家萨特的两大命题:存在与虚无,他人即地狱。关于后者,萨特本人曾专门纠正说,“他人即地狱”这句话总是被误解,“人们认为我的意思是,我们同他人的关系总是糟糕的,不当的。但我的意思完全不同。我是说,如果我们同他人的关系被扭曲了,变了质,那么他人只能是地狱”。伯格曼的电影将正解和误解的两层含义一网打尽,它可以被归纳为:人与人的关系总是糟糕的,不当的,和扭曲的,变质的,因此他的地狱,是双重地狱。

 

以上文字出自   《不准掉头 世界电影大师的救赎之旅》一书 作者 张秋

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独上高楼,望尽天涯路
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10 楼

管理员给此回复奖励了 2 分!
2007-8-24 17:28:44

我也是最近才看他的片子的。正如伯格曼自己所说,“我一直都生活在幻想之中,只是偶尔的回到现实中看看”。

PS:谢谢楼主给我2分 谢谢 我其实就是很2的一个人。

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11 楼

 
 
2007-8-28 13:31:06
最后一句。。。
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人皆寻梦
2007-8-28 14:59:32
太洒脱了...
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the future is everything.
 
 
2008-4-6 11:54:00

一个真正杰出导演,能够出色了解和把握你需要镜头感染力。知道什么样的镜头就算OK,什么样的就还得再来,或者干脆舍弃。而这种能力原则上是不会随着影片类型改变而变化的。比如黑泽明的《生之欲》到《大镖客》。因此,当偶们看到张艺谋的武侠和申奥大腿片时,就要返回去重新检讨一下对他的评价。

 

可为什么会出现这种认识误差?就是以所谓的非商业的文艺类、先锋类影片的在导演技巧上,可参照性对比太差。即使最终作品,可以激发起某些观众的共鸣,但是仍然无法在具体案例中比较优劣。比如蒙太奇,爱森斯坦可以就奥德赛的阶梯因何如此剪接,每个镜头的意义,总结出一套相对完整的理论;而文艺片爱用的长镜头到了奥森威尔斯的《邪恶的接触》的3分钟的开场,也有了清晰逻辑关联。装了炸弹的汽车和主人公的位置间时空关系变化,及以此试图达到何种悬念惊悚效果,都是一目了然的。

 

可是一个所谓文艺闷片中长镜头,你到底要多长才合适?是不是非得10分钟?9分半能不能达到同样的、甚至更好的效果?导演能解释清楚吗?而先锋派、酷片的导演所面临是,你的快速剪接的下一个镜头为什么是这个而不是那个。有具体理论执导吗?说道这里想起国产恐怖片《黑楼孤魂》里的一个有趣的片段。那个导演心思寻宝的私事忘了喊卡,结果摄影不耐烦了说“人都出画半天了,这也忒深沉了吧?”

 

对于后者的,显然没法知道答案,因为他们是跟着感觉走。大家也知道的拍电影确有感觉这种东西存在。但问题是,偶们怎么知道你感觉的对不对?原来这个问题也照样没有答案。但现在不同了,张艺谋、陈凯歌的下海演出,让大家多少了解到了,一旦题材风格大变。这种所谓的文艺导演缺乏某种艺术创作缺陷就暴露出来了。当然,偶并不是说,反过来,杰出的商业片导演就一定在涉足纯文艺题材获得成功。但是至少他们在自己那个领域的名气,是禁得起具体比较和推敲的,而不是像很多文艺片导演一样说不清道不明的就出了名。

 

下面话题个就更狠了。让砖头来的更猛烈些吧!先带上钢盔。

 

塔科夫斯基电影看的很少。就看过一个《伊万的童年》(飞向太空没看完)。确实感觉很震撼。而且还专门看了看《雕刻时光》的相关章节,了解了伊万的梦境和老塔父亲的诗有关。但斗胆提出一个问题:对比起来,梦境究竟是诗描绘的好,还是镜头表现的好?如果对比的结果,所有类似的情节(包括开场伊万凌空飞起),还是用文字、用诗来的更传神更生动,那么即使老塔的在片中镜头处理,已经到了登峰造极的高度,让所有人都叹为观止,那也没有太大意义呀!因为同样的故事和题材,有一种更好的文艺形式可以采用。同样,当我们肯定费里尼、安东尼奥尼对电影的重大贡献之一(用镜头表现了人具体想的是什么)时,是不是也该进一步思考,对于关于人物心理和思想的活动的描述,是不是用文字来的更好?

 

也许有人会说,既然是电影干嘛非要扯上文学?但实际情况是,这种比较在电影评价上一直都存在!最明显的例子就是莎士比亚作品的改编。仅从剧本的角度,无论是主题思想(很多人喜欢谈这个东东,哈哈)还是故事情节和人物塑造,莎翁作品都要远胜与其他原创或者改编题材。可为什么通常最不成功的恰恰也是这些电影?为什么?是编剧愚钝,读不懂莎翁原著主旨?这个似乎不太可能吧。艺术家的感悟能力肯定超过你我凡夫俗子。最起码他们当中很多不用看译本!但他们的作品最终确实失败了。那么唯一合理的解释就是:电影不可避免地被与原著进行了对比!影像呈现之后,照着文字原著差的太远。

 

伯格曼作品通常被公认为最有内涵和深度电影。而他本人几乎都是自编自导。但这并不意味着上述的“莎翁”现象就可以被他们这种“作家电影(不是作者)”所免疫。伯格曼电影依然存在着一个用什么艺术形式表达更为合适的问题。而且由于其作品哲学性和宗教色彩更为浓厚,势必加重文学在这种比较中的优势砝码。因此,会不会出现这种情况?即,由于无法见到伯格曼的思想用电影剧本之外的其他表现形式,所以对他的认识便多少产生上面提及的“无从比较”?而假设作者真的把同样的故事写成小说或者诗歌,大家兴许才发现:啊,原来可以比电影更好,同时,也可能会发现思想深度并不比哲学家更高?

 

但是,大家注意,并不是所有导演都会遇到类似的比较困扰。比如希区柯克,他就一直在强调电影的一种独立表达性。具体说,就是让观众从屏幕上画面剪接关联中去体验惊悚和紧张。虽然必须承认,希区柯克电影在思想的深刻性无法和上述几个欧洲大师相比,但他们又的确具有“无与伦比”性。这种感受是用文字无法(或者很难)替代的。。而最近几十年好莱坞更是将其发展到了另类极致。那些超级视听震撼的声画大片虽然很俗,可是再想想?除了进高档影院,还能到哪里感受到?

 

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2009-2-21 14:50:27
我也只看过《伊万的童年》 写的好,有些我很赞成,我有时也想到过
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2008-4-6 12:10:58
好嘛,你们牛.
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